Yeah, I Said It
Yeah, the comments were gettin ugly on that last post, so I turned them off.
The whole point of the post I think was missed.
I was meant to be a humorous jibe at what a difficult and low paid job teachers have and how they are not allowed to pray in school for guidance on a particularly horrible day (ie - dear powers that be, please keep my hand from stabbing this kid in the eye with this pencil - or - oh no, here comes Little Johnnie's mom - please grant me patience so I don't tackle her at the knees) or even thank the powers that be on a good day (ie - whew! sure am glad that kid moved - or - I sure am glad I don't have to go to that stupid meeting).
BUT! Since the subject was broached, I'm going there.
I do believe in the separation in church(or mosque or temple) and state, but I also believe that it should be okay to pray OUT LOUD in school regardless of your religion.It shouldn't be a problem because most of the worlds population believes in a higher power of some sort.
Whether you believe in GOD - no matter what language we worship him in, there shouldn't be a fucking problem with loving him. There also shouldn't be a fucking problem if you believe in GODS or anything else.
The issue here with me is this.....
If we believe in a higher being, why shouldn't we be allowed to show our love for him/her/them - as long as there is no sacrificing/mind control/torture/moral problems/etc.
I don't believe in pushing religion of any type down anyone's throaght - it's all about letting us do our own individual religious thing.
Why is there such a problem with this?
What in the fuck is wrong with people? Are we all so damn narrow minded that we can't accept what other people believe? It's not a matter of embracing everyone's beliefs, it's not even entirely about understanding them, it's having the the fucking decentcy to embrace people for who they are, regardless of how/who they worship.
YOUR approval, MY approval - it's not fucking needed.
I was just talking to Bossguy about this and he said that back in the day, it was a mandatory part of the day for the teachers to read a passage out of the bible, pray out loud and say the Pledge of Allegiance.
I can totally see how this would bother someone who is Jewish, or Muslim, or Buddist etc. - with the exception of the Pledge of Allegiance. (I do believe the phrase UNDER GOD should stay btw. - I can't see how this would bother anyone - unless you're atheist - and you can just skip that part)
Comments are open on this post. Come be a bigoted asshole - Please.
Labels: Nikki bites
Nikki Stank Up The Room @ 2:03 PM
29 Brown Nosers
29 Comments:
Whoa!!!!
Yowzee....
Someone just bit Nikki's ass!!!
Curious what crazy person did it...
Anyway, I digress...
When I went to high school, ok... it was just after the horse and carriage era...
We would have the National anthem and then a morning prayer. The prayer was from anywhere, we had Hindu prayers, Muslim prayers, Christian prayers, Philosophers even...
It was a brief minute of time... and sometimes, on a very special moment something really could strike a chord with me...
Pendullum - I really like that idea! How great to read a bit from EVERYTHING!
NO kidding... Wish I'd seen the one that did it!
I laughed out loud at that post... I have the utmost respect for ANYONE who is willing to be a teacher - and I believe they should be allowed to call on whatever power they need to help them a) deal with my child, b) deal with idiotic parents, c) deal with the beaurocracy of the school systems, d) deal with the incredibly low pay they get for doing an incredibly hard job, and e) get through the day with out becoming a mass murderer.
The fact that someone had the guts to write that nice bit of irony in the first place is heartening.
Here's a thought, potentially irrelevant, but a thought:
Why do so many people think saying a prayer is pushing religion; but reciting the Pledge of Allegiance or listening to the Star Spangled Banner is just peachy - especially since more people are disenchanted and angry with the current State of the Union? Right now, looking at an American flag can raise my hackles more than someone saying a quiet prayer.
DD - For me - that is a very touchy thought - so I'll give you what I think of it....
If you don't want to say the Pledge..that's fine with me.. Just don't live in the USA. Move your happy ass somewhere else.
But that's just what I think of it.
You can be upset with what's going on politically - fine with me - I'm never happy with everything either - it's human nature I guess - but for me - as a former soldier and very patriotic American - I would happily bitch slap the first sorry spineless bastard that was shitty enough not to say The Pledge.
Yes, it pisses me off. It pisses me off that my friends and family would or have tried to protect our country and there are some assholes that won't even say The Pledge.
If you don't like it here - then fucking leave - no one is forcing your ass to live here.
wow i leave for a ouple of days and people start talking ass without me! now that's unfair!
For too many people it has to be there way or no way, and that's not realistic!
When I was in little school I remember having to say a prayer before class, and all and by the time I got to high school we stopped that... too many different cultures, belief, etc.
We want freedom of speech and all that crap but we can't even respect other people's belief - that's a load of crap if you ask me!
...but you didn't so I'll shup up now!
Nikki - from one southern girl, soldier, and patriotic American to another - I love you dear
And I agree completely that freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion.
For dd - I have to think that you are not an American. I may be wrong on this, but when one says that the sight of the American flag raises their hackles...well, I don't know many Americans who would say such a thing. Hate the president if you must, hate all of Congress and all of state government, but not the flag...never the flag. That's a symbol of what we believe in...free speech, freedom of expression, freedom from tyranny...that's core, not temporary...
Nikki - I love you! thank you!
teachers everywhere have read your previous post. I've gotten that email about 10 times in the past 7 years. it is so true.
we teachers should be allowed to pray whenever and wherever we damn well please. i'd like to see one of those narrow-minded assholes spend a day in a classroom. they would know for sure that there is a God. And we need Him in our schools, desperately!
Let me start by saying I live in West Texas with a bunch of athiests, I'm kind of a not-sure-what-religion-I-am-but-it-ain't-fundamentalist kind of girl. I become very uncomfortable with some of the people here who start getting this manic glazed look in thier eye the moment religion comes into the conversation. There are a lot of them here trying to turn the world into people exactly like them. I say worship who or what you want, just don't try to make me do it too!
I'd consider myself "agnostic", but I kinda loved saying the pledge of allegence. It made me feel patriotic and I didn't give a crap about the God part. It doesn't say "under Jesus, or Muhammud, or Elmo" I'm also for corporol punishment in school too, but that's a whole other ball of wax!
Re: the flag. There is one faith in particular that comes to mind that prohibits the participation in government and military. They do not vote, fly the flag or state the Pledge of Allegence or celebrate holidays. Of course, they do reap the benefits from those who serve in our govt and military. Yet they're from 'here' so there's really no 'there' for them to go back to (i.e., it's not an ancestral religion from another part of the world). That said, I have never heard a single one of these folks complain about Christmas displays, the Pledge, etc. In that regard, they're a nice example of how not to get their undies in a bunch.
I'm not a fan of bashing anyone else's beliefs, but nor am I a fan of feeling the need to hide my own beliefs lest I offend someone's sensibilities, YKWIM? The whole concept of being 'politically correct' has been taken to the extreme.
Scully, yes, I am an American. And yes, I sing the Nat'l Anthem at every game and I help my son practice the Pledge for school.
I don't know how to clarify what I was trying to say originally w/o potentially pissing anyone else off so I won't. All I can add is that some people forget where their priorties are or should be when it comes to the different symbolic issues that are all around us, whether in school or a place of worship. They react instead of act.
My original comment wasn't meant to illicit a challenge to either my patriotism or question my heritage. That would be like assuming that Atheists are the ones who oppose prayer in school. Ironically, it is our government that supports the decision to keep prayer from school. And apparently, many of you do not agree with that decision, but I do not make the assumption you are not a patriot or not from this country.
People have the right to choose their religion and follow it as they want, as long as they are not FORCING it down the throats of others, or using it as an excuse to hurt others. A quiet prayer in public is fine by me, but ranting passages from the Bible at anyone who is near, isn't.
I just took a trip to Jamestown so this is a fitting conversation to have. Being in an interracial relationship we often talk about race relations in this country from slavery to civil rights to today and there's one point we always end on. However this country started (clearly, codifying slavery was wrong) but the foundation, the intent, laid the framework for the freedoms we have today. MLK didn't say he cringed at the flag. He used it to unshackle those last few chains holding people back from truly being free. He could separate the flag from those who used it for evil.
So to those who believe in the separation between church and state I say, apply your misguided interpretation to your love of country. Separate your anger at fallible politicians from your country. LOVE this country, LOVE this flag. It flew over policies of slavery once, Jim Crow laws, women in kitchens barred from voting, but today we have those freedoms because of the purest meaning of what that flag stands for. Please don't make it the focus of your scorn. Soldiers are being buried under it daily because THEY believed in the core of what it stands for.
as the religious leader who reads your blog i suppose that i should comment. when i was in hs my dad and i sued the school district in mississippi where we lived becasue they were allowing prayer over the loudspeakers.
i must say, though, that i always feel like a "sweet jesus!" is acceptable should the need arise.
Ok, ok I will behave. You can turn the comments back on.
No, I won't. But you know that already. *smooch*
Who pissed you off? I want a name. ;)
A lot of things have already been said that I might have posted. I agree with you, Nikki.
dd - I didn't mean to call your patriotism into question...I thought perhaps you were European or Canadian. (there are a lot of folks out there reading this blog who are not Americans, and a lot of other nationalities scorn our flag) I apologize for insulting you. That wasn't my intention. I do need to reiterate though, if you scorn your own flag, well, I think there is something wrong with that. Usually, when someone scorns their own flag, it means they want their entire system of government to change, i.e. Russia to USSR and back again. The flags changed in both instances.
Jeezzzz a girl gets busy and doesnt look at the pages for a day and look what happens!?!?!?!?!
*stands behind mean Christina*
fess up who pissed ya off - better yet copy and paste :)
Here is the thing about religion. The Constitution clearly states that we have the right to the free exercise of it. People tend to leave off that aspect of the 1st Amendment when trying to "hatch" the "separation of church and state" from it although they will never find it there.
I believe people can and should be able to express their own religion in this country. We are subjected to all kinds of views and philosophies that come cross-wise (no pun intended) with our own values. No one demonstrates over them (movie, TV, and musical expressions of violence, blue language, sexuality, etc.) But the minute anyone mentions Jesus in the classroom (or nearly anywhere else), some folks act like the world has come to an end. I don't get it. And I still haven't heard a good definition of "shoving their religion down my throat".
This is America, for God's sake. We should be able to express our views on any topic in a public forum - my views, your views, and even the views of those we don't agree with.
Hmm. . . for my next blog entry, I should just say, "See Nikki's blog"
I'm with you (and that's coming from a woman who is agnostic) but sadly, yes, some people out there ARE "so damn narrow minded that we can't accept what other people believe" and therefore ruin it for the rest of the world. They're also the ones starting the wars, blowing up our buildings with planes and who have killed millions of others just because they DO pray to a different God then them. And what's worse is that most people who pray to their God(s) are doing it for good, not bad.
What's the deal with the Pledge anyway?
I don't even really understand what it is.
Why does people not saying it piss you guys off so much? Why should someone who doesn't say it move somewhere else?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just wanna know.
woa - I find it disheartening to think that you have yet to meet a person of religious beliefs that you do not believe to be hurtful to others. And honestly, if the people you have encountered are hurtful and offensive, blame them, not God.
It's really difficult for me to put what I have to say in words without offending somebody - which is the difficulty with the whole live and let live philosophy... Believe what you want (but it you dare express it you're ostracized - my son wasn't allowed to say Merry Christmas at school last year as it was polarizing to children of potentially different faiths). I make it a rule not to discuss religion or politics with anyone except my husband, unless I know them really really well. (guess I'm breaking that rule now) But here's my opinion on the various issues... Religion education should be left to religious schools - HOWEVER, I think there should be reflection time. A time in which they could pray, meditate, journal, or some other activity that's meant for children to center themselves - with whatever vehicle is appropriate for that child. I believe that children need that center, that compass, that helps them know right from wrong, and also comforts them. As for the pledge of allegiance (sp? always have trouble with that word), and other expressions of patriotism? Unless you're planning a revolution, get your act together. I don't care if you're a democrat or a republican. Your patriotism should not hinge on the party in office for the moment. This is your country. If you don't like it, leave. There's no martial law here. No one is forcing you to stay. You have a vote. You have a vote coming up pretty soon. And another thing. I don't care if you hate the President's guts or not - but you better respect him. The President is the head of our Country, and this demands respect. I hated Bill Clinton - HOWEVER - you didn't hear me spew anything hateful. And my disagreements with him came out in political debate with family and friends (I'm pretty much the ONLY republican so it was interesting to say the least), but it was always respectful. I have never called a president a derogatory name - be it republican or democrat. I feel that's disrespectful to the Country. And I feel that if you wouldn't be willing to say that to his face, in the oval office, with his cabinet (and children) looking on - maybe you shouldn't say it. Debate? Healthy and harbinger of change. Spite and namecalling? Harbinger of malcontent and dissention.
Nikki, unlike you, I don't believe in prayer in school unless one prays to themselves because there are Jewish people like myself who feel it would be unfairly forced. I have no problem if you have a child that wants to pray before a meal in school for instance, but if you want to pray, there should be different religious clubs within the school where the child can go to before or after school and can feel a sense of kinship with others that practice his/her religion. Unless you're in a religious school, others of different religions shouldn't have to practice others' faith out in the open.
Politically-speaking, I get pretty jazzed when someone bashes our government/President. I don't agree with everything our government does but I get very tired of people bad-mouthing him. I'm proud of our country and I accept things for what they are, imperfect. I support whomever is voted into office no matter if I like what that person stands for or not. I agree with you, Nikki, that those who don't support their government shouldn't be here. There are too many people who spend too much time saying bad things about our country and then wonder why all other countries speak badly about us. If we don't respect our own country, who will?
Sorry for the lengthy post.
I've been away a while, but I have to comment on the religious part of this conversation.
I see a lot of "everyone's free to practice what they believe" and "no one's trying ot stop you from practicing...". Blah! That's all fine and dandy if you're part of a main stream religion, but when I tell people that I'm Pagan and that I worship a female above all else I get branded as an occultist, a "devil worshipper", a bad parent (in my state children have been removed from the homes of Pagans), etc. Hell, the President of this country has even said that one Pagan religion, Wicca, shouldn't be considered a religion at all (and military Wiccans who die in combat are not allowed to have their religious symbol, the Pentagram,inscribed on their headstones at Arlington). So, yes, we are technically allowed and encouraged to practice a religion different from the norm, but there are those that would try to stifle us- including some in power.
I don't begrudge my more mainstream brothers and sisters their religion, but that can't be said about them toward mine.
As for the Pledge, my daughters both know it (and Baby is two 1/2) because I am very patriotic and have a deep love for my countrymen/women. I don't say the "under God" because it's not original to the Pledge and it implies that somehow God/ess has forsaken the rest of the world in favor of the U.S. That, to me, is the epitomy of egocentricity. But trying to ban the Pledge outright, or even decrying it for whatever reason, is just asinine. Honestly, have some national pride.
Oh, and let's not forget the one thing that should be learned- by heart and by every single citizen in this country- before the Pledge of Allegiance: The Constitution of these United States. That is the thing that makes this country great, that makes our culture stand out as an example. Pledging allegiance to the flag means squat if you don't know- word for word- what that flag represents. Every child in this country should have to learn that, every single year of their school career. More so than the Pledge.
Jenny - I was hoping you'd post a comment.
Thanks
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